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This is the end

Microsoft versus Sony, Battlefield versus Call of Duty and Forza versus Gran Turismo. These are some of the rivalries that can get people talking about console wars. “Game On or Game Over” is your place to get inside the minds of Nicholas and Andy as they seek to find the true meaning of gaming and tackle some of gaming’s most controversial subjects. Both are award winning authors – although the awards haven’t been mailed or created yet — but trust them. Would they lie to you?

Spoiler Alert: The following article discusses the ending of Grand Theft Auto V.

Nicholas: It’s been almost two months since we last got together for a Game On or Game Over article, so there’s no time like the present to get back into the swing of things. To kick things off, I wanted to discuss something I spent a lot of time doing during my Christmas/New Year’s break, and perhaps the massive disappointment that followed.

So from around Christmas Eve until the first week of 2015 I spent the majority of my day and nights off work playing the current-gen reiteration of Grand Theft Auto V. While I enjoyed it on my Xbox 360 I never got around to finishing it, so the Xbox One version was an incentive to get back to Los Santos and get it all done. Needless to say, I absolutely loved it. I plugged over 40 hours across what was a little over a week, playing as many side-missions and extra objectives as a I could, along with finishing the main story. By the end of 2014 I hadn’t played that many games on my Xbox One, but of those I did, GTA V was another fantastic addition.

That said however, it’s not the game itself I wanted to dwell on, but more so the ending. For those who have forgotten, there’s a decision you need to make at the end of the game that has one of three endings – either one of two characters will die or all survive. Now despite having a game guide I didn’t want to spoil the ending, so thinking all three options would lead to one character dying, I picked the character I felt I liked the least. It was only after I finished the game and checked the guide that I realized I was one option away from saving all three characters. So after spending so much time in the game and having no recent saves to return back to, I was to say the least, pissed off.

So to kick things off this week I wanted to ask you if you’ve ever played a game where you’ve spent a considerable amount of time forming a connection to the characters, only to have them die in the end – but then find out that it could have been avoided. What are your opinions of storylines like these – is it a good way to tell a narrative and have hard decisions, or is it a slap in the face to gamers?

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Andy: First, let me say it’s good to be back in the swing of things again. As much as I dislike you, I missed writing these articles. With that said, and back to the topic at hand, I don’t see anything wrong at all with forcing gamers to make hard choices. In fact, I really appreciate a game that presents me with choices that make me take a step back and really consider the ramifications of those decisions. A game I played over the Christmas break was Far Cry 4 and during the course of the game you are asked to decide between two groups. One thing that I liked was each side had something compelling to offer, and I had to make a choice of which one to side with throughout different sections of the game.

Conversely, some games are so on the rails in their delivery that as the gamer you have no choice of what happens during the story. In a sense the game becomes a paint-by-numbers where there is no doubt about what is going to happen. I much prefer a game where I can make choices that matter. If I had to pick between two of my favorite games – the Metro series or the Fallout series, I’d take the Fallout series any day, because of the element of choice. That’s one of the biggest reasons I prefer RPGs like Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Mass Effect – I like the idea of choices I make actually mattering. While I like a good solid linear story – like watching a movie – I just prefer playing my way, and deciding how certain things happen.

Re-reading your above paragraphs though it gets me thinking. If you took away the game guide, YouTube and internet message boards you may not have known that all three characters could be saved. I remember gaming as a kid years, OK many years ago, when we didn’t have guides or YouTube. We played the game and that was it. Sure we missed some things, and were probably oblivious to others, but it was pure gaming. We didn’t hit pause and pull out our phone and Google the level. It was trial and error. We didn’t play for Achievements or Trophies, we didn’t really care about getting all the collectibles. It was 100% about the game. It makes me wonder, would your opinion on the ending that you got for GTA be different if you didn’t have the guide or any other resource to know the possible outcomes? Is it possible that guides and things like YouTube having taken some of the “magic” away from just playing a game?

Nicholas: Oh absolutely, purely for the fact that I would have thought that I had to kill a character and there was no way around that. The thing is though, even as a kid (and while I didn’t play with dinosaurs as a kid, I’m sure my childhood 14 years ago wasn’t too different from yours) I would still talk about the games I was playing with friends. For example, I still spoke to my friends about playing Luigi’s Mansion in high school and even with Mass Effect, having not followed any guides or videos, I still spoke about it with my friends both as I was playing and afterwards. I still buy guides for the occasional game but I don’t spoil missions for myself until after I’ve played them, so while gaming has certainly changed over the years, I still enjoy playing games for the sake of it.

I should perhaps clarify this further – my issue isn’t with making hard decisions in games. My issue is with making a decision in a game that has catastrophic consequences, only to find out later that you could have avoided it, and with no option then to go back and potentially reverse it. Now I understand that this can be seen as just me having a whinge because things didn’t go my way, and I understand that if I had more regular save files that I could have backpedaled too, but after 40+ hours of playtime that wasn’t a situation I found myself in.

This all goes back to the notion of me investing so much of my time with these characters, only to find out I lost one that I didn’t need to. Again, if I lost a character and it was inevitable then that’s the story and I’m OK with that, but when it could have been avoided, eh, it’s a dick move.

What also bothers is this – now that I had lost one of my characters, if I hadn’t finished all his side missions that contribute towards achieving a 100% completion for the game (and I hadn’t), there’s no way I can now do that with this save. It means that no matter how much more time I sink into this save file, I’ll never be able to get 100%. That’s the biggest dick move in my opinion by Rockstar. Knowing this, do you still think it’s OK for developers to do this because it places greater worth on choices? Is this the ultimate first-world-problem?

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Andy: I have to plead a little ignorance here as I have not played GTA V so I’m unsure of the save system in it. Does it have any type of save management, or does it simply just autosave over one file? If it is just a one off save system that overwrites every time than you are certainly justified. However, if there is a traditional save management system where you can have a number of save files and rotate through them, then it seems like the issue may be with how you managed the saves. Saying that there has been times where I’ll play an RPG or similar game with a save management system and forget (or just get lazy) to rotate the save files and find that I have backed myself into a corner and not have a decent save to fall back on. It’s hard for me to point the finger at the game (or developer) when there is something in place in the game to allow you to manage saves and such. Like I said though, I’m not sure that’s the case because I haven’t played that game.

That being said, I know playing Fallout 3 and collecting the bobbleheads that there are two of them that are missable. One depends on a choice you make and the other is in an area you only visit once. If you don’t get it during that one visit, tough sh*t. I have a friend who missed that bobblehead and never did get it because he screwed up his saves. Was it a dick move for Bethesda to have collectibles that were missable?  I don’t know, my gut says no. Only because it puts the onus on the player to really explore the environment and not take things for granted. I don’t mean my next comment to be directed at you by any means, but it seems many gamers now-a-days seem to want things handed to them in games. I remember gaming when I was a kid and struggling with a level on a game for two weeks or more. If that happened today a kid would bitch about how broken he game is. Back on the topic though, one thing I like in games with choices and more of a “sandbox” feel are when you get to a certain part and you get some type of message that same something to the effect of “This is the point of no return.” Warning the player to tie up any side quests, collectibles, etc. before progressing. I appreciate things like that, especially in massive games where I have a lot of hours tied up in it.

Here’s a paradigm shift for you to consider. I know we’ve talked in the past about how much you like the GTA series, I mean you played the same game on two systems that says something right there. Do you think some of your frustration with the game is simply that it’s over? I think we can both agree that there are games that don’t end the way we would like them to. Red Dead Redemption ranks high on that list for me. You said at the start that you picked the character you like least, can I assume that you still liked that character at least somewhat and are partly disappointed he died? Maybe instead of it being a dick move by the developer, it speaks to how well done the game was and the connection you had with it?

Nicholas: To answer your first question, GTA V (and GTA IV before it) did feature a manual save system along with an autosave feature as well. I know that instantly makes this entire argument end with “it’s my fault” and I accept that, I guess it’s just that I’m salty at the fact I can’t go back and fix my mistake because I didn’t make 100 individual saves to go back to. As a matter of fact, I had saved the game before the final mission started, but the problem is that the choice I made moments before that leads to the last mission had already occurred and couldn’t be changed at that stage. It was too late to go back when I decided what I’d done.

Your comment with saying “gamers now-a-days seem to want things handed to them in games” is absolutely true and we’ve spoken about it in the past numerous times. As much as it pains me to say it, it applies here too. Of course Rockstar have the freedom to make the game they want, of course they can put tough decisions like this that could leave the player remorseful and of course it should have been on me to make more saves. We just have this habit of being vocal when things don’t go our way, and truth be told, I did feel a little embarrassed having such a sook about this knowing I could have avoided it.

Regarding your final question, I have to rely with “not really”. There’s a sense of satisfaction you get when you finish a game and I definitely understand that notion of “now what do I do with my life?
that you get when get to the end of a game that you’ve been playing for weeks/months, but this one was different. My gripes above aren’t regarding the fact I finished GTA V because I would have still had things to do – side-missions to complete and collectibles to find. The gripe is purely down to the fact I lost a character that I couldn’t continue using after the main story had finished, just because I had the wrong decision. For me, the perfect example of what you’re referring to was with Mass Effect 3. At the end you know there’s no more games happening with Sheppard and as upsetting as it is, you’re happy with the journey you went on with him. I know it couldn’t end differently and I was OK with that, and in that regard, yes, credit is due to the developers on an amazing story.

You mentioned above the warning games may have like “this is the point of no-return”. Do you think that potentially ruins the suspense of such decisions? Isn’t it almost spoiling the story because you anticipate something significant might go down soon, as opposed to letting it shock you when it happens? With the stuff I was complaining about to begin with, is it all just part of gaming and we need to get over it?

Mass Effect 3

Andy: I think the “point of no return” style message is a testament to how gaming has evolved as an industry. Does it ruin the suspense of the moment? Yes, and no. Yes, in a sense that it pulls you out of the game for a moment to give you that warning. Yet, at the same time, no, because when I get that message – if it’s a game I am really into – it ramps up the suspense because I know the end is right around the corner. I think it’s a good, or as good, compromise of having so much to do in a game, but having a definite end point as well.

With your last response, I see what your biggest issue is now. With franchises like Mass Effect, Fallout, GTA and Elder Scrolls there is no end of things to do and it’s easy to forget about the main story. More often than not we spend more time doing side missions and things that don’t matter than we do pursuing the main quest line. When save management is bungled and the game ends with a game-changing ending, such as a character’s death, it’s understandable to be somewhat pissed off. The only solution I can think of off the top of my head is to have a redundant auto save feature that kicks in before key decisions are made. I don’t know how realistic that would be though, or how it would be separated in the save menu.

The more I think about it, I remember when Fallout 3 came out (yes I know I talk about that game all the time) and when you hit the end of the game, it was game over. No continuing on afterwards, just boom credits rolled and back to the start screen. It took a couple of months for a DLC to be released that let you continue on after the game ended. I was pretty irritated at that, but had a save right before that mission I used. It always did strike me as odd though that it was programmed that way. Since you are still fresh off your disappointment/frustration – and so we aren’t just bitching to bitch – do you see a solution for this issue? Or at the very least something to make it more palpable for gamers?

Nicholas: I think so, and the best example of this for me was with Saints Row. Now let me go on the record by saying I absolutely (and I mean absolutely) loved the original SR game. It was a true ‘gangster’ game and it was unlike anything I had ever played before (no, I never played GTA SA). At the end of the game your character is on a boat that explodes, and you’re never sure until the sequel what his fate is. That said, whenever the credits end and you return to the game, you always return to the point before the final mission. This way, you can replay it as much as possible and you can continue mucking around in Stillwater too. This to me is the best way to end a game where the main character(s) die. You get that shock, but you’re never left thinking it’s game over.

As we near the end of our first article for 2015, I think more about the ending of GTA V and the connections I made with the characters. Their interactions with each other, with their families/friends and just with the world overall, it made it hard not to develop a bond over the 40 hours I spent with them. You’ve mentioned Fallout 3 at length here – is there any other game that comes to mind that you really connected with? If so, what was it about them or the game that facilitated it? Do you think being able to connect with a character is the hallmark of a solid story?

saintsrow3

Andy: I know I talk about Fallout 3 a lot, you probably get sick of me talking about it, so this part of this response may surprise you. I never felt much of a connection to the main character. Sure, I decided what he looked like, what skills he was more proficient in, and the choices he made – but I never much cared for the main character. Hell, I’ll go on record and say I didn’t like the Brotherhood of the Steel either. What utterly captivated me was the world. Seeing real places and landmarks destroyed really brought it home mare than any other game I have played. There are so many places to explore and stories to uncover, man I love that game.

If I had to pick a game where I was emotionally connected to a character the choice would be easy for me, Red Dead Redemption. I’m not sure at what point during the game I came to really care about him and the story, but the end of that game is one of the few times I put my controller down and just contemplated what just happened. I didn’t think I’d care that much about a cowboy, but man was I wrong. It was a perfectly told story and as much as I didn’t want to admit it at the time the ending was spot on. I hated Rockstar for doing it, but man it made everything complete with the game.

When it comes to large ‘choice-based’ games like GTA, Fallout, Mass Effect et. al., creating, and managing, a save system that keeps the focus on the choices made while allowing for some leeway for the gamer is a tricky thing to achieve. On one hand you want the player to make a choice in the moment and live with that choice. Yet, you don’t want gamers to be frustrated with a one-off type choice where there is no going back. I’d say that at times, those tough choices are intentional by the developers. Making those choices much more painful and thought provoking and giving the game a little deeper feel. Honestly, and I know you don’t necessarily want to hear it right now, I like that. I like that the choices I make have a consequence. As with every game though, make one choice one time and you can always go back and make another choice on a second play through. For some games, getting to that second choice may take 40 hours or more… which isn’t always ideal, but it’s still an option. At the end of a day, when a game can generate emotion towards characters and the death of a characters, that – in my book – is a mark of a pretty damn good game.

Tune in next time for the next instalment of Game On or Game Over. If you have any ideas for our next article, feel free to contact Andy or Nicholas on Twitter.


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About the author

Nicholas Simonovski

Events and Racing Editor at Stevivor.com. Proud RX8 owner, Strange Music fan and Joe Rogan follower. Living life one cheat meal at a time.

About the author

Andy Gray

From the frozen land of Minnesota, I was the weird kid that begged my parents for an Intellivision instead of an Atari. My love for gaming has only grown since. When I’m not gaming I enjoy ice hockey and training dogs. I’m still trying to get my Elkhound to add to my Gamerscore though, one day this will happen.